New Year's Eve Ball in Orlando is Falsely Accused

It'd be nice if the NCSF website were up to date. It would make spreading the word a bit easier.

Thanks for pointing this out

Thanks for the info- this does change the situation.

I hope they sue Bob Young's ass for libel/slandar.

Amen.

As a resident of Central Florida, and an active member of a couple different alt lifestyle type groups, this incident had me concerned when it first broke. Good to see that the incident is being investigated.
Laura

Bob Young from Greenville, SC? Why does that name sound familiar? Is he active in some sort of religious organization?

Please know that not all people from SC are ignorant liars.

I saw him interviewed on Fox21, he looked like your average mouth breathing Suburban driving NASCAR watching soccer dad. Nobody special.

Actually it turns out the kids saw into the ballroom from the pool area where the hotel manager had sent them to get them out of the lobby. I'm sure in this, as in all things, there's some truth--and some exaggeration--on both sides. At the end of the day, it was incumbent on the hotel to decide which constituency's $$'s they wanted more. It's a bit of a no-brainer to keep kiddie soccer teams separate from sexually oriented adult groups. I think this is all about greed, not so much about anything requiring any sort of activism.

Pay closer attention, please

Caliqulous,

You're not getting it. Actually, it does NOT turn out the kids saw into the ballroom from the pool, and it would be interesting to know where you're getting that from. The hotel manager never intervened to send them there, because there was no reason to. And it would not have been comfortable: the pool is completely outside the hotel, as you can see from the photos available at http://www.ichotelsgroup.com/h/d/cp/1/en/hpt/MCOHN.

And remember, the parents originally accused the manager of doing nothing. You, or your supplier of this new version, can't have it both ways.

Most of the women entering the ballroom were wearing BALL GOWNS, and the rest wore socially acceptable evening dress, because those were the rules of the ball. We know this from the off-duty police officer who was hired by the hotel, not to keep an eye on swingers, but to keep an eye on the young soccer hooligans who had been booting balls all over the hotel and tearing stuff up. We know from him that nobody flashed anybody in the lobby. It was impossible to see into the ballrom from anyplace.

Sometimes there is NOT truth on both sides, sometimes one side is totally lying and the other side is totally honest. All the known facts here point to the parents lying about every single detail, for the sole purpose of objecting to the mere presence of swingers in the same hotel with them. And when you buy into the proposition that it's a "no-brainer to keep kiddie soccer teams separate from sexually oriented adult groups," you are buying into the same intolerance the parents are guilty of. Those rambunctious teenagers needed no protection whatever from a group of well-dressed, well-behaved adults who were paying no attention to them. They could use some protection from bigotry, but that's beyond the responsibility of the hotel or the capability of any of us.

Readers of these posts can count on one thing: every time someone tells or repeats a lie about alternative lifestyles, there will be people like me telling the truth back at them. And eventually the truth, and tolerance, will prevail.

Re: Pay closer attention, please

The team members were pre-teens, some as young as 9 years old. And as much as I support the right--yours and mine--to do what we please, I think children have the right to be children. As for the behavior of the adults at the gathering, that's arguable and ultimately is a judgment call in any event. All of which is kind of besides the point that I want to make here....

I think the kind of strident demanding of tolerance regardless of circumstances on your part does more to diminish its possibility than it does to achieve it. Courtesy and understanding of another person's position (even if you disagree with it or are offended by it) will help the cause more than attacking anyone--and everyone (that would be me). Not everything is a big deal. The fact that you make it one is disturbing--and counterproductive.

Re: Pay closer attention, please

How do you know the children were as young as nine? That wasn't in any news report I read. You haven't anwered how you got the erroneous information about viewing from the pool, either. Have you got some connection to the soccer parents you aren't revealing?

You say the behavior of the adults at the hotel is arguable. It's not arguable if you accept the word of a police officer who observed everything. Apart from that, it is clear that the parents lied about the ability of anyone to see anything inside a ballroom which was not then and is not now visible from the atrium as claimed. We know they lied about that, and that makes their testimony, against the officer's, not credible. There is nothing left of their story at all. It is due no courtesy.

In that posture of facts, is it really strident to insist that the truth be acknowledged? When the ball attendees did not one single thing to warrant a complaint, is it really strident to say that the parents were intolerant? I certainly don't think so. But I want to note that that word -- strident -- is exactly the same one used when women began asserting their right to equal treatment with men. It was an indirect way of telling them to shut up.

And you are candid to tell me the same thing: I can't DEMAND tolerance, I should just shut up and hope nice people will see the light. But that's not enough. Until people like you admit the truth, the truth needs to be told, and retold. These ball attendees were totally innocent, and I do indeed demand tolerance, and they will get it from fair-minded persons. Your notion of fair-mindedness is treat courteously the other person's view no matter how bogus. It reminds me of a Robert Klein riff on Swedish neutrality during WWII -- "Well, yew hev a point, Mr. Churchill, and yew hev a point, Mr. Hitler. . . ." Sorry; there's no neutral view at a time like this. Liars about matters like this are little Hitlers.

The reason I and others are making a big deal out of this is that it is a clear case, a pure example of something very dark. The facts are unequivocal; the swingers were totally innocent of any misconduct. Yet public lies were manufactured against them, and a national cause celebre was created. It is being promoted by people who want to shut swingers out of hotels all over the country -- many requests to do that have been made to national hotel chains in the past, and this story will be fodder for that effort.

That makes it very important to get the story right, and to realize the reason the lies were told: oppression, pure and simple. It is not about anything the swingers DID, it is about who they ARE. Their crime is to believe and do things in private that are offensive to the intolerant, who want them cast out, and strictly segregated from "decent" people.

But this is America, and you don't get to oppress people just because you don't like their looks or their private behavior. There is a solid tradition of active resistance to that. Like gays before them, swingers refuse to be pressed underground and excluded from normal society. You will pin no pink triangles on any of us.

Re: Pay closer attention, please

Caligulous wrote:

"At the end of the day, it was incumbent on the hotel to decide which constituency's $$'s they wanted more. It's a bit of a no-brainer to keep kiddie soccer teams separate from sexually oriented adult groups."

If all hotels had the same attitude as Caligulous, then 90% of the small and mid-level events for alternative sexuality would be eliminated. Do you know how hard it is for an event to sell-out all the guest rooms and take over a hotel that is big enough to have the ballrooms and meeting space we need? It doesn't happen often.

So as a community we need to learn how to share public spaces, which we do very well. We keep our sexual social and educational activities in private areas - ballrooms without windows (like the one in Orlando), meeting rooms, and private guest rooms.

As long as we behave properly in the public areas - lobby, elevators and hallways - then we have as much right to rent and use hotel spaces as the soccer parents and their kids. I don't see what gives the kids more right to use the hotel than the swingers.

We have to stand up for our rights whenever intolerance and lies are spread about us because no one else will. Any time someone tells me to stop, it just makes me want to fight harder because I know there's still a lot of work to do.

Susan Wright

Re: Pay closer attention, please

If the police officer was hired to watch the soccer kids, how did he see the adult gathering in a different part of the hotel?

Re: Pay closer attention, please

The officer is not being quoted for what was going on in the ballroom. He was in the lobby area, where the parents claimed the swingers were flashing the kids. He says that didn't happen. The ballroom is indeed in a different part of the hotel, and the point is that NOBODY could see what was happening inside it, contrary to what the parents were claiming. Bear in mind, they said their kids saw the inside of the ballroom through the atrium. The layout of the hotel makes it clear that that is impossible.

Re: Pay closer attention, please

And like gays you will shoot yourselves in the foot. Don't misunderstand me: I am on YOUR side. Which is why I deplore tactics that make achieving goals more, rather than less, difficult. Some things just aren't worth screaming about; they just give "them" ammunition and create hostility where there might have been only mild disapproval--or even apathy. It's human nature. It would be much better to use it to advantage and focus on what's worth fighting to the death for.

Re: Pay closer attention, please

"To the death" sounds a mite histrionic, but for me, sexual freedom would be one of those liberties worth fighting.

Curious, would those issues be for you?

Re: Pay closer attention, please

My point is that getting this exercised over the complaints (accurate or otherwise) of (presumably intolerant) people is self-defeating. Such an outpouring of venom toward anyone who questions or disagrees won't further our real aims, which (I hope) are to make life easier for those with "alternative" lifestyles; to create an environment in which everyone can do as she pleases in peace.

It just seems to me that exposing bigots by showcasing their bad, out-of-control behavior in contrast to our good (ie. quiet, respectful, self-possessed, dignified) behavior works better than screeching and pointing fingers. When it gets to that, they will always win.

What's the goal? To out-talk every bigot, every single time? Or to move toward a society in which all lifestyles are respected and unmolested? I'd prefer the latter, even if it means letting some stupid people talk til they're tired. In my experience, most people will live and let live if they don't feel attacked or threatened. If it is THEY who are shown to be the problem, bigots will be overruled by the larger group.

I guess I'd rather reach an objective than argue with every single small minded person that gets in front of a microphone. Look at some of the comments in this post. There's too much outraged anger in the small battle and not enough resolve to win with effective tactics in the larger war.

Re: Pay closer attention, please

Excuse me but "accurate or otherwise" rather got to me. I have had to deal with complaints from people that were not accurate, and its always a good idea to get both sides heard, and witness testimony of people who are not with either side! These parents making false statements about another group strikes me as them just not liking the other hotel guests. So they said nasty and false things about them to get them to not be able to meet in 'their' hotel again for such a purpose.

Ah, good. I was going to discuss the article on tomorrow's Polyamory Weekly, and now I can discuss just how, um "interesting" the reporting was. Thanks for the follow up.

Will look forward to hearing your take on it!

It never ceases to amaze me. These "soccer parents" (such a sadly accurate phrase) getting all up in arms about children allegedly watching something sexual, and they ALLOW them to watch the liberal news media in which violent horrible crimes are eagerly reported with zeal.

Which would you rather the children know about, sex or violence?

Such a sad state of affairs.

BTW.....

Was away for quite some time, so just got to this article. TY for clearing things up!